MemberApril 17, 2021 at 2:30 pm
Most creationists believe there was only one ice age, and that it lasted for five to nine centuries after the Flood. In Ussher’s chronology the end of the ice age would coincide pretty closely with the Exodus.
Geologists believe that the Mediteranean was cut off from the Atlantic in the past and that in the Messinian Era the rate of evaporation was high enough that it most of the water evaporated, lowering the sea level there by about 5,000 feet. Later when the ice melted, the Atlantic over-topped Gibraltar and flooded the Mediterranean in an event called the Zanclean Flood.
I have noticed that the Gulf of Aquaba and the main body of the Red Sea both share the two main features that allowed the Mediteranean to go dry. They are in the dry latitudes with no rivers flowing into them, and they have high sills and narrow entrances to the Indian Ocean.
In my study of ancient mythology and history, I noticed the stories of the “Fire of Phaeton” which was said to have been around 1500 BC. The Greeks described this as a time where the sun burned hotter and the Mediteranean Sea went dry. The islands became mountains and the Nile river delta became canyons leading down to the sea. Later the Greeks said the Flood of Deucalion drowned the Agean area.
I think it is quite possible that the Red Sea and Gulf of Aquaba had sea level about 1000 feet lower at the time of the Exodus. This would have some effect on the distribution of the debris from the drowned army.
MemberApril 17, 2021 at 5:34 pm
Ken Griffith, I believe that you are the one-out-of-a-thousand type person that asks deep questions. The Historical Faith Society has attracted a lot of these type people. Tim calls his film production something like “Thinking Man films” and basic participants are Thinkers. Some of Tim’s emails are thinker updates.
If the Young Earth Creationist position is the correct one … questions like the ones you are asking will or could collect various evidential pieces together and bring respect to the Bible and to those who hold that view. Ken Ham has sometimes said evidence can be used to support both viewpoints on the age of the earth, but, that our preconceptions dictate how we view the evidence.
I just want you to know that there is some evidence in scripture for an old earth. The scriptural evidence isn’t as strong (directly anyways) for an old earth as for a young earth, but there is some.
I’m only writing this so that IF you were forced to conclude the earth was old, I just wouldn’t want you to lose your faith over it. Certain questions though that you are asking will lead to yet more questions. If the sea level was lower during the ice age when North America and Europe had a two-mile thick ice sheet, and then after the ice age these sheets melted and dumped their water back in the ocean, the sea level would rise as you described, there might be evidence of where the shoreline in Egypt was during these times. We know there are some underwater structures off Egypt and in many other parts of the world, that indicate the world ocean level was once lower. Reconciling these dates of shorelines might be your next task as you are venturing into whether science will end up proving the Ken Ham viewpoint, or an old earth viewpoint or as Ken Ham seems to now believe, it can support both positions.
My goal is not promote one view over the other but to let each person gain knowledge and share it. Your viewpoints on the sea level of the Exodus time is well-conceived. And in defense of a young earth viewpoint (though I don’t hold it) perhaps as the ice sheets melted there was some other mechanism that whisked away a portion of water into space or deep oceanic trenches or some sort of thing. So if you find little evidence of sea level change, a scientific method of redistributing ocean water could be postulated and still allow you to hold a YEC viewpoint in regards to that evidence.
Additionally, I think I remember some geologist in one of Tim’s films saying the ocean boundary up against Egypt, somehow changed over time. The exact change he was talking about, I can’t remember though.
I’ll definitely support your studying. If your position is right, I’ll learn.
Ken, your comments on this thread are in keeping with the topic of the Exodus. If other people want to debate or share information about various evidences of an old or young earth they can personally connect with me. Or if the interest is great enough maybe at some point people can start a separate Group for such a discussion.
I’m hoping and should be praying, that all conversations should 1) speak the truth in love 2) not try to be provocative 3) that anyone who shares information will also realize that there are multiple sides of an issue and be able to listen as well 4)(Very Important) that we recognize each other’s intellectual positions, emotional attachments and that Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit reveals truth in His time. Jesus said “I have much to say to you, but you cannot bear it now.” We all have times when we are most open to learn and other times we are stressed and tired. (I’m not writing this to you Ken … but for people less experienced in communication.)
I’ve also postulated that seismic activity along rift valley could have opened up (rifted spread apart the gulf of Aqaba or even Red Sea and sucked down a lot of water. Remember this scripture.
As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart
32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions.
33 They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. (Num. 16:31-33 NIV)
If this happened with the Yam Suph, then perhaps water from elsewhere eventually rushed back and overwhelmed Pharaoh’s armies.
MemberApril 19, 2021 at 12:54 am
I’m willing to look into this (historical cities and their coastlines). But you’ve been studying chronologies for many years, so maybe it would be easier for you to look into. However, I’ve had some interest in maps. I could perhaps find some Bathymetric maps (how deep water is at various points in seas and oceans).
Maybe you could look at ancient records that reliably record what cities were ancient ports at the time of your interests. I could then look at depth of water off the coast. If for instance you find evidence for an ancient port at a certain city just before the Exodus, I could maybe try to find some geological studies, or see if the ocean drops off quickly right off the coast. If for example a coastal city in Egypt is found and the ground slopes gradually into the ocean and doesn’t reach a thousand foot depth for say a hundred miles into the ocean it becomes less likely that an ocean level rise of that amount occurred during that time frame. I’m not trying to over-simplify the studies that are required… but it is start. Ports can perhaps be built on navigable rivers, but still we’d have to look at how steep the river cut is into the ocean bed. If it is too steep to be navigable, or maybe if an ancient harbor that dates to just prior to the Exodus isn’t on a river, it will make it more difficult to argue that the ocean level was much lower… or to argue that the see level was much lower than the harbor features seem to allow.
I’ve not looked into any of this so I’m not making any real arguments or real suggestions. But I’m just trying to figure out how we can rule in or out some ideas that you have … and also, if true, how to support the theories or ideas that you think should be evaluated.
Your questions are excellent and the way you are piecing evidence together for a coherent theory of the world is great. “Eustasy” defined by The American Heritage Dictionary: “A uniform worldwide change in sea level.”
I’ll just note that sometimes local tectonic activity causes variations in coastal levels at some areas compared to others. I can get into more detail about Eustasy later.
MemberApril 19, 2021 at 8:48 am
Well, one obvious implication of Sea Level being at least 300 feet lower at the Exodus is that the entire Gulf of Suez would have been dry land.
Regarding port cities, the era I’m talking about would be found in early Mari and Ebla. Also Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre. Ugarit was probably built already at that time also.
The Egyptian delta extended 50 miles north of its present boundary.
MemberApril 19, 2021 at 9:18 am
Hey shoosh, Ken… I need the sea level to be higher at exodus so the Suez Isthmus is flooded and the Bitter Lakes full 😉
MemberApril 19, 2021 at 6:01 pm
Ken, please allow me some time to research all this.
MemberApril 21, 2021 at 12:29 am
Ken, in this month’s monthly focus there has just been featured a high quality 25 minute video called The Border Lakes of Egypt, and there are some views expressed on ancient shorelines at earlier times, and these views relate sea levels in a way that attempts to correlate with some proposed Exodus dates and their dating schemes. One of the experts believes the ocean was about 8 inches lower at Ramses time. And some of the shorelines of Egypt changed because the Nile has brought silt deposits and expanded the area of Egypt’s Nile basin further out into the ocean. This all gets complex – if we try to match this with your theory. Your proposed date of the Exodus, it does predate Ramses … but by how much?
MemberApril 21, 2021 at 11:01 am
My proposed date of the Exodus is 1491 BC, at the end of Dynasties 6 and 12.
However, I also propose an alternate stratigraphy where the Ice Age ended and the Younger Dryas Impact Event occurred around the time of the Exodus. The Greeks record three floods in the Mediteranean region: Ogyes, Dardanus, and Deucalion. There are actually two floods of Deucalion, the older one being the Genesis Flood. The younger one was around 1450 BC and may represent the Zanclean Flood which overtopped Gibraltar and refilled the Mediteranean.
Therefore I would expect to find Middle and Old Kingdom port cities and settlements under the sea in the Gulf of Suez and in the Delta about 40 miles North of the current shoreline.
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